This feels like perfectly acceptable us AS A LAST RESORT. I'm saying as a last resort because I'm coming from a place where an AI companion is by definition an inferior one to a human one (not sure if I can defend this).
The biggest danger I see here is that people who COULD get actual human interaction with some effort would use the easier/more available robots. Exactly like people use online in interactions and "relationships" conducted via pixels because they're easier to obtain than meatspace ones.
On some level this danger feels more significant than a danger of a robotic sex doll. I have zero sympathy for people falling potentially "in love" with their masturbation aids (there are men out there who have those kinds of things going with currently available plastic ones, and quite a few more with OF models and other assorted remote sex workers). But the idea of an elderly person (hey, I'm going to be one of those in less than two decades) feeling they have a FRIEND (which implies intimacy not typically granted to sex toys tho see above) made of a chatbot feels vaguely disturbing.
I think I agree with this. One of the ideas I struggle with is exactly the push and pull you're describing. I'm a firm "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" type guy, but I also think there's an unexplored idea of how we actually do that. I had a joke in an early draft of this that said "maybe I could just be less of a crappy son" and it's true. So I see two scenarios:
1) Elderly person (me in a few years) has no one else, this is better than that, great; and
2) Non-elderly (me now) use this as a license to further estrange seniors. "Oh, I don't have to call my mom, I got her a chatbot"
I think the first one is positive and the second one is negative and I struggle with how to reconcile those. So yeah, I think this is a real concern!
Gosh skin, you make a strong argument here. I read Dan’s thing and was like “oh yeah huh I guess robot relationships are not all bad …” and now I have reversed course. The question is, “is it better to have no one or to have a robot and FEEL LIKE you have someone when you do not?” If the highest good is relationship, I think you must choose the robot. I have a different, more “spiritual” take on life in general. In various moods I can defend the idea that each of us is here with a greater purpose than to just “be happy” which is a very empty purpose in general. I cannot make this case now because I am tired and slogging my way through a week. Just believe me when I say I can? Anyway, I side with skin because I can not accept the argument that we are here randomly and without reason. Oooh Dan do one on MACRO EVOLUTION *quickly apologizes and exists
>If the highest good is relationship, I think you must choose the robot
Hmmm. Humans NEED relationships with other humans not just to thrive (loads of evidence here) but on some level to literally survive. I think it goes beyond "happiness".
My fear here is that when it's easy to get an optimally compatible robot friend (and acquaintances and other companions e.g. lovers) humans will not go through the pain and effort of developing relationships with non-optimal bio humans.
Such relationships (with robots) are also obviously one sided and not mutual, in that the robot exists solely to fulfill my social needs. In itself, it has no needs (tho could pretend to have them, of course). Again, this makes them by definition easier.
But I can't find a genuine reason why I think this kind of thing would be a Bad Thing, apart from vague recollections of Asimov's Solaria...
I'm 61 and planning to move house soon, where I will live alone. Until about ten years ago I had never lived on my own and was very fearful about becoming lonely. I soon realised this was just conditioning. Now, throughout that time I had a job and a reason to get out of the house. The only times I felt a bit isolated were when the person living below me had company. With better soundproofing I would not have known and would have been oblivious. The notion that other people are out there doing exciting stuff is one of those insidious tactics that propagandists use to persuade us that our lives are crappy and we need to go places, buy stuff, etc.
I am on the spectrum and find people quite tiring quite soon. I don't go out of my way to seek company but recognise it has a place. I am very able to keep myself occupied. Online acquaintances and a cat will do the job for me BUT I am keen to integrate into the new community and am already researching ways of doing so. These don't include chatbots but, for example, a Walk And Talk group, which does exactly what the name suggests. Fresh air, company, check in on each other via Messenger. The danger of becoming shut-in and "oh hey I'm okay" when you're not is real, even for me. For more extrovert non-spectrum people I can imagine it's really painful. If AI can overcome that it could be useful. For example an automated phone call at random times to establish if you're okay and "press 1 if you would like to chat with a person" could really make a difference.
Thank you for sharing this perspective, it's very interesting. I admit, one of the things I struggle with is that I am an extrovert from a family of extroverts. This limits how much I can look at some of these issues. So I really appreciate hearing from people who don't have some of the same views that I do on these things.
I am not person guying you (maybe a little bit) but you sound very pleasant. I am amount ten years behind you and I have five children … the youngest is only six and I am homeschooling him for reasons of health … my days are spent trying not to yell at him and being verbally abused by my older teens. A cat sounds splendid but i also feel a bit immune to this issue that looms large for others … how could it happen to me? I have generated enough future friends to fill in any life lull … I’m just kidding of course, their own lives will drag them away and honestly, I can only see two of the five as being the type to call me regularly. I was not that type for either of my own parents
This feels like perfectly acceptable us AS A LAST RESORT. I'm saying as a last resort because I'm coming from a place where an AI companion is by definition an inferior one to a human one (not sure if I can defend this).
The biggest danger I see here is that people who COULD get actual human interaction with some effort would use the easier/more available robots. Exactly like people use online in interactions and "relationships" conducted via pixels because they're easier to obtain than meatspace ones.
On some level this danger feels more significant than a danger of a robotic sex doll. I have zero sympathy for people falling potentially "in love" with their masturbation aids (there are men out there who have those kinds of things going with currently available plastic ones, and quite a few more with OF models and other assorted remote sex workers). But the idea of an elderly person (hey, I'm going to be one of those in less than two decades) feeling they have a FRIEND (which implies intimacy not typically granted to sex toys tho see above) made of a chatbot feels vaguely disturbing.
But maybe it's not.
I think I agree with this. One of the ideas I struggle with is exactly the push and pull you're describing. I'm a firm "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" type guy, but I also think there's an unexplored idea of how we actually do that. I had a joke in an early draft of this that said "maybe I could just be less of a crappy son" and it's true. So I see two scenarios:
1) Elderly person (me in a few years) has no one else, this is better than that, great; and
2) Non-elderly (me now) use this as a license to further estrange seniors. "Oh, I don't have to call my mom, I got her a chatbot"
I think the first one is positive and the second one is negative and I struggle with how to reconcile those. So yeah, I think this is a real concern!
Gosh skin, you make a strong argument here. I read Dan’s thing and was like “oh yeah huh I guess robot relationships are not all bad …” and now I have reversed course. The question is, “is it better to have no one or to have a robot and FEEL LIKE you have someone when you do not?” If the highest good is relationship, I think you must choose the robot. I have a different, more “spiritual” take on life in general. In various moods I can defend the idea that each of us is here with a greater purpose than to just “be happy” which is a very empty purpose in general. I cannot make this case now because I am tired and slogging my way through a week. Just believe me when I say I can? Anyway, I side with skin because I can not accept the argument that we are here randomly and without reason. Oooh Dan do one on MACRO EVOLUTION *quickly apologizes and exists
>If the highest good is relationship, I think you must choose the robot
Hmmm. Humans NEED relationships with other humans not just to thrive (loads of evidence here) but on some level to literally survive. I think it goes beyond "happiness".
My fear here is that when it's easy to get an optimally compatible robot friend (and acquaintances and other companions e.g. lovers) humans will not go through the pain and effort of developing relationships with non-optimal bio humans.
Such relationships (with robots) are also obviously one sided and not mutual, in that the robot exists solely to fulfill my social needs. In itself, it has no needs (tho could pretend to have them, of course). Again, this makes them by definition easier.
But I can't find a genuine reason why I think this kind of thing would be a Bad Thing, apart from vague recollections of Asimov's Solaria...
I'm 61 and planning to move house soon, where I will live alone. Until about ten years ago I had never lived on my own and was very fearful about becoming lonely. I soon realised this was just conditioning. Now, throughout that time I had a job and a reason to get out of the house. The only times I felt a bit isolated were when the person living below me had company. With better soundproofing I would not have known and would have been oblivious. The notion that other people are out there doing exciting stuff is one of those insidious tactics that propagandists use to persuade us that our lives are crappy and we need to go places, buy stuff, etc.
I am on the spectrum and find people quite tiring quite soon. I don't go out of my way to seek company but recognise it has a place. I am very able to keep myself occupied. Online acquaintances and a cat will do the job for me BUT I am keen to integrate into the new community and am already researching ways of doing so. These don't include chatbots but, for example, a Walk And Talk group, which does exactly what the name suggests. Fresh air, company, check in on each other via Messenger. The danger of becoming shut-in and "oh hey I'm okay" when you're not is real, even for me. For more extrovert non-spectrum people I can imagine it's really painful. If AI can overcome that it could be useful. For example an automated phone call at random times to establish if you're okay and "press 1 if you would like to chat with a person" could really make a difference.
Thank you for sharing this perspective, it's very interesting. I admit, one of the things I struggle with is that I am an extrovert from a family of extroverts. This limits how much I can look at some of these issues. So I really appreciate hearing from people who don't have some of the same views that I do on these things.
I am not person guying you (maybe a little bit) but you sound very pleasant. I am amount ten years behind you and I have five children … the youngest is only six and I am homeschooling him for reasons of health … my days are spent trying not to yell at him and being verbally abused by my older teens. A cat sounds splendid but i also feel a bit immune to this issue that looms large for others … how could it happen to me? I have generated enough future friends to fill in any life lull … I’m just kidding of course, their own lives will drag them away and honestly, I can only see two of the five as being the type to call me regularly. I was not that type for either of my own parents